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Author Topic: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?  (Read 2825 times)

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Offline Ranger

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2009, 09:01:55 PM »

  I can fully understand that argument, and in most ways agree with you. that being said, game systems that must cross multiple genres, ages, classes, groupinigs, ect. Are not generally realistic, as far as capabilities of the characters, and any game system that is 100 percent reflective of reality would perchance by either so moribound in rules as to be unplayable, or so rules lite that there is no true foundation for character creation, or character capabilities after creation.  Now game systems like Rolemaster, Gurps, Harnmaster and perhaps others I am not familiar with have included race/nationality or era alterations to the core system and have made some attempt to balance out those issues.  For example with Role master in the older second edition you had Robin hood, Spacemaster, that one set in a 'three musketeers' type reality. Ancient Greece ect and each of those were modified to add the correct flavor to the era without tying the system down to inplayability.  RMSS did the same with some of their later suppliments the one that comes to mind is the one set post apocolypse where demons are running around the entire suppliment was changes to the core RMSS system to make the mileau playable.
  Gurps in the third and fourth editions, did much the same, take for example Transhuman space while they were third or fourth edition suppliments they were customized unto them selves to fit the flavor of the era. Same applies to the WWII suppliments of the Third edition. the core WWII book list numerous alterations in technilogy, skills, advantages/disadvantages, equipment ect to make the flavor of the era distinct from the other possible eras of play, though conversion to 4th ed is somewaht difficult the designers even went and made a rather decent attempt to make clear instructions as to the needed changes and provided them free on the web site, actually on two different web sites.
  Harnmaster goes in a bit more detailed and complex direction withe the core books altering availalbe skills occupations, and even gear by not only racial, National, Regional origions but in the case of the Barbarian tribes by specific tribe even in the same general regions.
  Another interesting though restricted game system that takes pains to be realistic is Aces and Eights, from Kenzerco, an alternate history wild west game, is technically a d20 game with no occupations beyond general occupation and no levels, just skills and necessary mastery levels to be eligible for a given occupation. An example would be you make your basic character, you want to be a cowboy, you need some levels of animal handling, roping branding ect to get you 'regular' pay for the job. If he later wants to be a Rancher, he needs so many levels in accounting, business, ect. to be sucessful in running a ranch and employing cowboys, cooks ect and make a profit.  The advanced character creation rules a highly in depth but there are also levels of detail ranging from the basic rules, on up to highly complex and realistic rules sets.

Offline Ranger

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2009, 09:21:28 PM »

 I forgot to mention in the last post that I MIGHT be inclined to do a wierd WWII game if there is enough interest.

Offline Celedor

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2009, 09:23:43 PM »
Methinks, that's a conversation for "I want to play" or "Recruiting for the Gaming Table". . . .
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Offline magritte

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2009, 12:18:34 AM »
The reason classes bother me are twofold:

1) A modern rifleman is a fighter, as is a 15th century grenadier, as is a 6th century swordsman. The subsidiary skills that support the main focus of their job are entirely different, but skill costs based on class don't address that. In other words, character classes don't allow for those archetypes "drifting" over time due to cultural changes or new technology. In the case of political revolution or introduction of paradigm-shifting technology (gunpowder, steam, etc.) that drift can be quite sudden, but a GM has no real means to incorporate that into his "universe model".

2) A "fighter" is assumed to be better at physical skills than a "magician". To be fair, there is a reasonable amount of logical basis for this. But the net result is that a "fighter" living in the Gobi desert is going to be able to learn swimming more easily than a "magician" living in Hawaii. Skill archetypes "drift" with location as well, but again character archetypes don't address this.

But this doesn't really have anything to do with classes--you'd have to adjust the skill costs for time and place regardless of whether you had a system with classes or not.  As long as its reasonably easy to modify skill costs for your setting, it's not a problem--I did it extensively for my Rhodias campaign.  I suppose it's somewhat more laborious than in a classless system.

Personally, I prefer class-based systems because unless you're talking about a stone-age setting with little or no division of labor, professions should exist and govern to some extent the kinds of training a character has had.  Classless sytems seem to imply that characters acquire skills in a vacuum without any socially constructed role.

I think the multi-classing is particularly unrealistic.  A first-level mage is presumably the product of at least five years, if not ten, of intensive study--how can somebody with no magical training just take it up in midcareer?  It would be like me suddently deciding to become a lawyer or a doctor.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2009, 07:41:42 AM »
But this doesn't really have anything to do with classes--

Sure it does. Character class/profession/whatever and the skill acquisition rules, between them, define how characters learn.

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you'd have to adjust the skill costs for time and place regardless of whether you had a system with classes or not.

Exactly. Classes add another static layer to an already static skill acquisition model.

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As long as its reasonably easy to modify skill costs for your setting, it's not a problem--I did it extensively for my Rhodias campaign.  I suppose it's somewhat more laborious than in a classless system.

Sometimes it's not a problem. It's like working on your own computer, it's not a big deal if you know what you're doing. Changing skill acquisition rules (skill costs, whatever) can have far reaching consequences. You can easily trash your game and not realize it for months. I've done it and had it work, and I've done it and had it not work.

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Personally, I prefer class-based systems because unless you're talking about a stone-age setting with little or no division of labor, professions should exist and govern to some extent the kinds of training a character has had.

Sure. But once you get beyond feudalism, the division of labor becomes so complex that no reasonable number of classes can answer. That's the point of classless systems.

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Classless sytems seem to imply that characters acquire skills in a vacuum without any socially constructed role.

To me they only imply what I learned years ago: No GM can draw a box so big that his players can't climb out of it. So here's a set of rules that assumes they already have.

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I think the multi-classing is particularly unrealistic.  A first-level mage is presumably the product of at least five years, if not ten, of intensive study--how can somebody with no magical training just take it up in midcareer?  It would be like me suddently deciding to become a lawyer or a doctor.

I agree. And again, no one learns in a vacuum. A "1st level fighter/magic user" isn't a 1st level fighter and a 1st level magic user, not unless he has a multiple personality disorder. He's neither, something midway between the two, each area of knowledge "bleeds over" into his mindset concerning what he learns and how he uses it in all other fields.
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Offline cmac

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2009, 03:13:29 AM »
I'm a GURPS fan and hopefully a future player.  I own many GURPS products but have yet to actually sit down and play a face-to-face game.  I've read, re-read and even solo'd out scenarios to familiarize myself with the system so if needed I would even run a GURPS session or two or even more.

What I love about it is the Class-less system and the lethality of it.  In GURPS a single crossbow shot can kill an elite or a recruit with one shot while in the multitude of other systems a single shot would have no hope of killing an elite.  Challenges often need to be thought through.

Anyway,
I'm a GURPS player

Offline cmac

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 04:14:25 PM »
For those of you who might be interested in GURPS you can obtain a copy of GRUPS LITE from this link http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004

It is a free download.  Don't be scared you know you want to

Offline Silverthorne

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2009, 10:59:47 PM »
GURPS player/gm for a long while now. 

Offline mek42

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Re: Hmmm, are there any GURPS players here?
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2009, 09:23:22 PM »
It was Humabout's GURPS game that brought me over here, so thanks for having this thread that may have, in some small part, inspired the beginning of said game.